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Spy and Sniper cap but no Demo or Medic.Question of balance?

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2' started by Anonymous, Jan 11, 2013.

  1. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Hey already me with a topic I thought a lot of the last time what I would totally like to see to improve balancy in teams. Balancy was a big topic in the last weeks. Here's my attempt :p. I would adapt the server settings for demo and medic to competetive settings. Means 1 Medic and 1 demo out of 6 players.

    Why this.

    Demoman:

    Well I think you all felt it when it's Spammoman time. 1000 of nades flying around bumping from walls, ceilings and corners. Rolling around, while u panicly try to dodge them but you sadly will notice that it's nearly impossible. Spammoman kills without even have to get a sight on his enemy. "No aime required" (in some situations). I won't even start talking about stickies.
    Demoman is the perk with the highest amount of dmg output and with his weapon features the most played class and maybe the most powerful.
    Stacking this class means automatically an outstanding increase of dmg output which leads to a fast imbalance no other class can compete with.

    Medic:

    You know if there are just 2 medics more in the enemy team then in yours. You will feel it in epic proportions. The team with a markedly higher count of medics has 1. Way more HP then your team (overhealing). 2. Higher amount of I call it "tactical nukes" (Ubers). 3. Receiving way faster HP back they lost.
    Teams who differ too much in medics from each other will increase a high outstanding imbalancy too.

    Everybody knows "Medic Win" teams. They win just they have a very high amount of medics.

    In my opinion it's worth thinking about it if you think about balancy of teams. Extending class caps.
    Most important I think are Medic and Demoman.

    Hope I don't bug you guys. Just trying to give cause for thought.
     
    #1 Anonymous, Jan 11, 2013
    Jan 11, 2013
  2. hbro

    hbro Registered

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    Re: Spy and Sniper cap but no Demo or Medic.Question of bala

    First of all, demoman does require aim. And when defending, I'd rather have an extra noob demoman on the team than a extra noob scout.

    The servers are public ones, not true competitive ones, so the settings are accordingly.

    Now for medics, they indeed do change the winning team balance in their favor, but therefore encourage the other team to get medics too, making the teams balanced again.

    For both classes: if too many of one class are in one team, it's actually bad for that team as the team then starts lacking the benefits of other classes. Imagine 5 demomen in 1 team: sure, you've got a decent damage output, but what good is that when an ubered pyro humps in? Or imagine 5 medics in 1 team: sure, you can deploy a lot of ubers, but without them (or while charging), your team is much more vulnerable to all other classes.

    However, I do support a limit on all classes! To protect teams from noobs.
    Something like 3/4 of a single class max per team.

    PS: Interesting subject of discussion. But I have a hunch this has been reviewed somewhere in the past.
     
    #2 hbro, Jan 11, 2013
    Jan 11, 2013
  3. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Re: Spy and Sniper cap but no Demo or Medic.Question of bala

    Of course demo requires aim. That's not the point although I get more often killed by random nades then direct hits. But 4 demos on one team with 12, 13,14 players is way too much for my taste. Encouriging joining medic? Never see that happen. Yes a cap on all classes would be awesome but surely not the same on each class, that would create imbalancy again. But like I said medic and demo cap to 2 because they create great imbalancy compared to other perks. =)
     
    #3 Anonymous, Jan 11, 2013
    Jan 11, 2013
  4. howabe

    howabe Registered

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    Re: Spy and Sniper cap but no Demo or Medic.Question of bala

    Demoman limit is 5. Medic is 4 (If I recall correctly).

    As far as Medic is concerned, I think the main problem is that people on your team don't want to go Medic.
    With a (albeit highish of 4) limit in place, it's always possible for your team to match the other team in number of Medics/ubers/heal rate. You just need people who want to work with the team. (I know you play Medic quite a lot on AM1, so this isn't necessarily a dig at you.)
    Perhaps the best fix is that whenever choosing certain classes, you receive a message of "You chose to play Sniper. BLU currently has 3 more Medics than your team".

    Demoman is a bit different. Personally, I'd rather face 5 Heavies or 5 Soldiers than 5 Demomen, and I think maybe the class limits for these should probably be brought more in line. Surely only being able to have 3 Heavies isn't so bad when you can just take something equally deadly but 5 times in the form of Demoman? But again, nothing stopping your team either taking the same amount or choosing a setup that can counter it decently.

    At the end of the day, the main problem in my eyes is people not knowing to or not being willing to choose from what they want to play to what the team needs them to play. And if you setup in the right way for what you're facing and still get crushed, it's going to be down to the other team being better, and there's nothing you can do about that (other than spam !sausage).
     
    #4 howabe, Jan 11, 2013
    Jan 11, 2013
  5. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Re: Spy and Sniper cap but no Demo or Medic.Question of bala

    Surely you can't force people to pick classes which are useful for the team but you can lower extremes. I'm not looking at the case that we have not enough classes of one kind like nobody wants to play medic, that's something you can't interfere, but you can set limits and so spread, redirect classes, creating a more even line up. And a cap of 4 medics and 5 demos? That cap is then unnecessary :D.

    It's a topic you can argue a lot I know.

    I would propose 3/4 Scouts, 3/4 Soldiers, 2 Demos, 2 Medics, 3 Engineers, 3/4 Heavies, 2 Snipers, 2 Spies, 2/3 Pyros.

    I think this is rly an adequate setting to create maybe force to more even teams.

    Open to argue :)
     
    #5 Anonymous, Jan 11, 2013
    Jan 11, 2013
  6. hbro

    hbro Registered

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    Re: Spy and Sniper cap but no Demo or Medic.Question of bala

    This.
     
    #6 hbro, Jan 11, 2013
    Jan 11, 2013
  7. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Re: Spy and Sniper cap but no Demo or Medic.Question of bala

    "but you can set limits and so spread, redirect classes, creating a more even line up."

    Just try to understand it hbro
     
    #7 Anonymous, Jan 11, 2013
    Jan 11, 2013
  8. Delta07

    Delta07 Registered

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    Re: Spy and Sniper cap but no Demo or Medic.Question of bala

    Well I think the problem is not, that one team has too many medics, it's more like the other team has not enough. If your lineup doesn't work out, look at what the other team does and try to cross their plan. When a spy keeps back stabbing your combo, go pyro and spycheck the shit out of him. Stuff like that.

    But as howabe pointed out, there are people who don't want to pick another class or just not knowing better. And changing class limits won't help there I guess. What does it help when the other team has their two medics, while your team has zero and you are getting demo-spammed to death?
     
    #8 Delta07, Jan 11, 2013
    Jan 11, 2013
  9. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Re: Spy and Sniper cap but no Demo or Medic.Question of bala

    Won't say it again that this topic is about unbalancy through stacked classes, means extremes. NOT about people who don't wanna play the usefullest class in the moment for the team. It's about equalizing teams in lineup due caps for better balance, better gaming experience then it's now the case.
     
    #9 Anonymous, Jan 11, 2013
    Jan 11, 2013
  10. Panromir

    Panromir "10/10 amazing guy"

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    Re: Spy and Sniper cap but no Demo or Medic.Question of bala

    There will be no change in class limits.

    Sniper/Spy 2, rest 5.
     
    #10 Panromir, Jan 11, 2013
    Jan 11, 2013
  11. Snelvuur

    Snelvuur King of Sand

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    Re: Spy and Sniper cap but no Demo or Medic.Question of bala

    If we cap the rest its a server where you cant play the class you want. People want freedom.
     
    #11 Snelvuur, Jan 11, 2013
    Jan 11, 2013
  12. Killvion

    Killvion Registered

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    Re: Spy and Sniper cap but no Demo or Medic.Question of bala

    This.


    A demo limit of 2 will cause much more rage amongst our players than it will do good. Imagine 1 f2p newbtard and 1 demoknight on your two demospots, while the enemy has set up a sentry nest.

    No. These classes are too valuable and useful to be restricted. We restricted spies and snipers harder, because everybody hates getting killed by them, they require a different kind of skill to become useful and they usually aren't because of it. Sure, a good spy can make all the difference in the world, but it's usually harder to be a somewhat decent spy than a somewhat decent soldier, let alone medic.

    If the two sniper/spy slots are taken by noobs, you might be slightly annoyed, but it won't make you lose. If the demo/medic spots are taken by noobs, you'll fail. This will only increase imbalances. Sorry.
     
    #12 Killvion, Jan 11, 2013
    Jan 11, 2013
  13. DataStorm

    DataStorm Registered

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    Re: Spy and Sniper cap but no Demo or Medic.Question of bala

    Scout: 2
    Soldier: 5
    Pyro: 3
    Demoman: 5
    Heavy: 3
    Engineer: 4
    Medic: 4
    Sniper: 2
    Spy: 2


    while this still can get most annoying fail team composition, at least some classes would be useful in it.
     
    #13 DataStorm, Jan 12, 2013
    Jan 12, 2013
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