Hello players of the famous All Maps #1 Server. I think it has come to everyones attention that AM1 suffers from a great deal of team stacking, which goes to an extent that makes scrambling teams necessary almost every map. Since scrambling is random theres a chance of the teams being worse than before, which is why players try to avoid the system, leaving them with horribly inbalanced teams. To avoid teamstacking in the future we are planning to use our given methods, this would mean: - Players are automatically assigned to a team on connect, they cant choose a team anymore - Players cannot use 'jointeam' or 'spectate' commands - Players who try to re-stack teams after a scramble or AB happened will be punished with a cooldown on switching teams - Players are not allowed to switch teams after a scramble/AB for a certain amount of time - Reconnecting to switch teams will not work - Players can not join spectator if that would cause a team imbalance that would result in a AB - Spectators will be 'scrambled' too While this all might sound pretty harsh, I personally dont see any other way anymore to avoid teamstacking on AM1 anymore. Players do not even deny that theyre stacking anymore. Obviously this would make it harder to play with your friends, but thats a little sacrifice for a big gain imo. Opinions please.
Tbh, I've always against any scramble options. If its so severe as you tell here, both Teams should Stack. On GTFOGaming when it was active, their server #10 was always both sides stacked with sometimes up to 100% of different comp players playing together. As this happened, they had rules against such, but #10 was always excempt of that. Same went for their Lazytown server. Both teams where stacked with friends who always played with 2-4 ppl groups. Rounds lasted sometimes 10 hours before a final cap they being able to do to win the map. Very harsh scramble options may very well end the population on a server. GTFO made it automated one day, and it marked the start of a big decline in their players. The stacking problem is a result of more regular players on a server, those start to know eachother and play with eachother. The result is that they play often with the same ppl, and know how to build on one-another, ppl in their friends list join them on that same server, for they see a full server where 1 or more of their friends are playing on. Also, the effectivity of scrambling is really low. Its not defined as a 1-2 person change to make it "balanced". Its been observed on GTFO that 1 person to the other side made the difference of what team was "Stacked", but that with every other "switch" or multiple switches it didn't do anything. So, instead of telling them to stop stacking, I'd say: good, go stacking, but stack against eachother, make it interesting. I would add some to the name of the server "Pro" or "TeamStack" or w/e, rather then make it scramble so much. Steamrolling will only end up with players leaving that aren't stacked, and they will automatically get "auto-balanced" to the losing side. As that is pretty random.... To make the both-side stacking more effective, I'd set the maps to some like 40-45 minutes to run as minimum. The default 20 minutes is too short for a map to let ppl balance out in teams during the play. (I dont know @ how long its set on AM1) Think you will find that way more satisfying.
Yeah I remember GTFO gaming servers, we used to have a loooot of regulars there, in fact, usually the servers were filled with mostly regs. What you say is true, but I dont see the two stacked teams happening, most of the time we dont have enough regs for that on the server. If we do, then yes, it works out. The options I proposed are not scramble settings per se, they are more like mp_forceautoteam with stacking prevention. Changing the timelimit could be an option indeed. I saw this on the some servers, if one team wins a certain amount of rounds in a certain amount of time, the server will instantly force a rtv like vote and change the map immediately to balance the teams.
The problem for us is the huge difference in skill within our regs. A lot of people wearing the LZ tag aren't really that amazing, but then there are some that are. And then there are the regs without the tag. It's just uncontrollable. Like the other day, Lucky Luke and Natural were stacking together for 3 maps in a row. They won 8/10 times. However the vast majority of the server didn't know they even knew each other, because neither of them wear any clan tags. However my team was filled with a lot of LZ tags, so that one or two times we actually did win, people would complain about stacking. Panro, you're saying that we don't have enough regs to stack both teams, but lately I haven't played in a server with less than 6 and up to 14 people from my friendslist and I know even more regs then are in my friendslist. (This obviously only counts if the server is full, not counting the filling process).
The stacking lately is getting ridiculous. Its the main reason why I barely play anymore, theres almost no fun in it. You either steamroll or get steamrolled. So im all for anything anti stack atm.
The problem lies in defining what is stacking... for if 2 ppl play together in a team that are friends, you name that stacking here with Lucky Luke and Natural. On GTFO that wasn't considered stacking. They considered it stacking if 5 or more "regs" where always playing together. Those formed a team within the team, and forced all the points... but with the other team also having such "sub-teams" that wasn't a problem on #10 and LT. Really the difference is sometimes only 1 guy, and then that guy is maybe a pyro. Tbh, I would rather play on such servers with such stacks, at least some teamwork is going on. I'm known to fume when they aren't and everybody messes it up for the rest. No fun without some teamwork in a team game. They get me? Good, I need to learn.
In my opinion we can't just enforce people to join a random team and even restrict to switch, our regulars join AM1 mainly because they want to play with specific persons they already know and not with new players. For example if the server is empty they only join when there is a handful of good players already playing. If we took the freedom of choosing a team from them the possibility of losing them would be too great. The only (and probably hardest) solution I can think of is to directly ask the regulars and some of our good LZ players to join a weaker team from time to time to prevent the all known massive ragequit.exe. I know this has been said like 504353 times, but if we start to take control of the players then they will change their favourite server and stack with their friends there. It is not like AM1 is the only stock map server in the game. Pretty much the same situation like GTFO (what Data mentioned). I know it's quite much to ask from our regular players so at least our LZ members (including myself) should try to fight the stack a bit. Even if it is not fun playing with noobs, it will prevent the server from getting empty in seconds. I'd say leave that forceautoteam stuff out of the server. I don't think we will gain anything good from it. People can still sausage if they feel like it.
I have a few words to say about Japtor's "good players on the weak's side" kinda idea. I clearly remember a day, probably in last month, there was a game on AM1(the map was dustbowl) where blu was totally stacked, and i was in red team. The "stackers" in blu also have comments under this topic, defending scramble but as far as i can remember, only Dactrocki asked for a scramble in blu, and whenever auto-vote for scramble came up, "no" won with about %60-65 of 20 players. And when we asked the current admin over there(which had multiple admins at that moment), the only answer we had was "oh well", no "strong" players in blu felt the need of making it fair and red emptied in a few minutes, ending the game in blu's "triumph"... what i want to mean is, no rather strong player wants to give his/her spot to make the teams "fair". Hope i didnt make anyone angry with my words, but i felt the need to say these, would be happy if these are taken under consideration. Thanks in advance
Data, stop getting GTFO involved. As described by you, their servers were NOTHING like the LZ ones. It's utterly useless to talk about them. We don't have several groups of players always playing together. We have a group of very skilled players that attract others for whatever team they join and a bunch of "couples" that usually play together. There are no "teams within teams that play together". There are good individuals and there are people that want to be in their team to either medic them around or get the best chance of winning. During prime time, generally both Red and Blu are stacked. It goes well until one team gets more of the skilled regs and the other has less. And we have to face our problems in our situation. GTFO had their issues and their situations, they don't apply to us. Leave em out. Now to Jap. There are several reasons this won't work. Firstly, these skilled players are often amongst the first to join a team, because people wait for them to join. Secondly, players won't listen. Thirdly, even if they do it can be hard. A lot of times when I notice the teams are really unbalanced and a scramble isn't helping, I'll be wanting to join the losing team (if I'm not already in it that is) but you quickly go "I'll join them when the round is over, because I already pushed the cart half way now". But when the round is over, you can't join the team anymore, because the teams got auto balanced and the teams are equal in number. These things combined make it extremely unlikely this will ever solve the problem. We all know scramble doesn't work in most cases and usually even makes it worse. Look, I hate this measure and I've always fought it. But shit's getting out of hand. We need good solutions. If anyone has something that would actually work, I'd gladly accept it, because I don't want the force teams thing. But for now it's the only thing we've got.
I guess you make a point there Kill. I know what you mean, I am playing on AM1 regulary myself and even act Iike that, too, I won't try to deny that, everybody is doing this from time to time. Joining the team with good players because nobody likes to lose and has to blame his team. I was aware of that the regs won't help out balancing teams much, but I fear that if we enable forceteam we will lose a part of our players, especially new ones will be scared away because of all the restrictions. This is just me speculating so I guess we should observe then how well things are going with the new system for now. It would be best if we could get feedback from regs after some time. Maybe the regs will get used to it like when Youtube is releasing a new layout (rage => acceptance). But this shouldn't be the final solution imo. This is really a dingly-ass dang of a problem if I may throw that in here.
The good old chestnut... can't keep track anymore how many threads about this were opened since I joined the LZ forums. ^^ But yeah... it's a pain. Avoided AM1 lately as well. Mainly because it's usually chuck full and it's tedious to join with a group of 3-4 people onto a full server, but also because of the ridiculous amount of cocksucking going on. It's very, very annoying to see one good pocket dominate a server, no matter what team you are on. In the enemy team obviously because you get constantly murdered by them and in the same team that you don't get much to contribute and especially don't see any support from the Pocket Medic, because he's way too busy fellating his fellow buttbuddy to a point where you get worried that the particular cock might drop off. But yeah, in the end I would also vouch for Forceteam. I guess people that aren't satisfied with the wizened wiener of the regular pub player and can't live without the big juicy pro player sausage can go fill AM2. So have fun on AM2 Zack.
Trial a forceteam solution on the server with a message asking for feedback on the forums. If it doesn't work out then remove it, cant really see a downside.
Right, for now AM1 has forceautoteam activated an an advert saying that if people dislike it they should come here and complain.
Hah cauch, it might actually be a pretty good idea to advertise that AM2 doesn't have it. Might get that one more populated.
I pick random 95% of the time. Just more fun that way. I like to both try and kill but also co-operate with people on my friends list. So either way it's always fun. Teams should be balanced though. Otherwise it's just no fun. Don't know if it has been mentioned here already (tl;dr), but I believe the stats point system may have something to do with it. :roll:
That should do for now. Let's see how this will work out. Good thing we still have AM2. ^^ It's not the point system, it's because of the behaviour of the players. And it's pretty much impossible to change that it seems.
just a quick heads up... don't block the spectate :? been problems with this before and with things we did back then nobody could join spectate and well that sucks in more then 1 way
Well I rly don't like this. It may help a bit against stacking but the first always happens when a team loses is a scramble whether the teams are stacked or balanced. And after the first scramble your auto assign did nuthin. And I want to play in the team where my friends are whether they are losing or not. I don't think these new settings are very effective. THUMB DOWN! Happy new year
People have already figured out that joining a random team, waiting and letting AFK manager put you in spectate lets you then pick which team you want. Once everyone becomes aware of this (note: DON'T READ THIS IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW! ), it's not really going to stop people doing what they were doing before. To be honest, the only thing I've noticed so far is that some people who aren't as good but have teammates/friends they work very well with to do well struggle a bit, and it ironically means that a pairing of " good weaker" players like that that could happen to balance out some better players on the other team is less likely to happen, leading to more one-sidedness. Ultimately, as I generally always autojoined anyway, I don't mind if this stays or changes, but those are a few observations.