So here's the thing: The Heavy gets a Shotgun, where he can generate health on hit, the Pyro gets incendiary ammo and the Engineer gets metal on hit. But what about the Soldier? He deserves no benefit? I talked about this with the others on the Server and they all agree for the most part. So what do I have in mind? I think the shotgun should generate rocket ammo, 50 Dmg = 1 Rocket. Value for the damage necessary is not final as i have no clue myself if it's too high or too low. I really would like you to consider this and hope for some feedback on this matter. -Paper Doll Man
Ammo regeneration makes no sense. The idea behind this plugin is that shotguns should be imbued with the abilities of other weapons from the same class: Pyro shotgun: imbued with Flamethrower Heavy shotgun: imbued with Sandvich Engie shotgun: imbued with Widowmaker Thus in order to fit in with plugin theme, soldier shotguns should be imbued with an attribute from one of the other soldier weapons: Rocket Launchers: Deal explosive dmg in the form of additional knockback Buff Banner: Minicrits for a short while Battalions Backup: Dmg resist for a few seconds Concheror: Minor healing and/or speed buff for a few seconds Equalizer: Dmg incresed at low health Escape plan: speed buff for a few seconds Disciplinary action: speed buff for a few seconds Market Gardener: Guarenteed crits while rocket jumping Half Zatoichi: Minor healing On a side note, IMO the Engie and Heavy shotguns are OP: Pyro must deal >50 dmg in order to set opponents on fire. Heavys/Engies suffer no such restriction Heavy/Engie buffs scale based on the amount of dmg dealt. Pyro afterburn is not dependent on dmg and remains fixed (a fantastic example of this is goomba stomps: Heavy gets +350 hp, Engie gets +350 metal, Pyro deals a few seconds of afterburn) Engie stock shotgun makes equipping the Widowmaker pointless, as you can use the shotgun to get the same abilities and none of the risk (missing a shot with the Widowmaker takes quite a bite out of a player's metal reserves, while missing a shot with a shotgun is nothing due to an increased ammo pool
Agreed Disagree. Imbued with chocolate or fish cake as because of overheal while healing. Agreed Disagree. Widowmaker can be used in conjunction with amplifier and you get crits per shot means you gain more than you lose if you score a hit, if it's a "tunnel" base pathway you can definitely hit him and with amp you have good knockback if he has to jump he can't wait for you to reload as you have none, ends up in him having to use rage in order to get to you. [Perfect example. Warehouse and the containers. Onto the idea: Make it so that his shotgun has crits on flying targets and has lifting capabilities in a sense of a rocket under your feet knockback then.. more of a use to have the shotgun and he can't do much with it alone, but with friends it would matter, could save a bunch of heavies on mini guns who would fire at him. And we all know that saxton has less knockback resistance while in mid air. But either way you could still imbune it for healing to full hp (not over heal) as per half zatochi as you said, although that would look like the heavy's shotgun to begin with. ~Cheers
The soldier's shotgun and its lack of an ability; I remember that this was minorly discussed in the middle of this thread last November. I do support the fact that a health gaining shotgun for the soldier is quite balanced. But its not really needed, the primary sources of damage done to the soldier are due to his rocketjumping and fall damage. If you're going to rocketjump then a more efficient option would be to use the gunboats and occasionally rocketjumping to health packs. In my opinion these 2 should be combined, giving a soldier more/less damage and knockback depending on his health. E.g. A soldier with full hp will deal little to no damage and knockback to hale but a near death soldier will deal more damage and knockback compared to the average shotgun. Now this might look overpowered but a near death soldier can't rocketjump away from hale, especially if he is using the shotgun instead of the gunboats.
(1) Most engies in such positions will have sentries set up, meaning the boss will have to rage no matter what shotgun is equipped (2) If a weapon is likely to result in a ragekill, and another weapon is available with similar stats but reduced chance of ragekill, which are players more likely to use (eg stock Flamethrower or Degreaser)? Reserve shooter already does this If you mean apply the same amount of force to Hale that a soldier receives on rocket jump then NOOOOOOOOO: Far to powerful If you mean give the soldier the ability to rocket jump with a shotgun then NOOOOOOOOO: One rocket launcher per soldier is quite enough
It's a preference there, give more variety for more options, most people will pick shotgun because they get ammo from sentry while holding it.. add to widow maker the same option and then discuss this hum? Has less ammo and I added an additional effect to what it might do, also alternative, let soldiers shotgun stop flying targets in a sense numb flying speed if shot with enough damage/force I love your ideas although that's not what I meant at all, meant as in like staggering hale when you shoot at his feet with direct hit he lifts up for a brief moment, adding that to the shotgun would make it more useful. I do support it as there's many "Pro" players who go with the stock loadouts and it might bring them here as they would also do more damage for rockets and also while healing themselves with shotguns. N...O.... I'd be the first guy to abuse this really...(if Snel doesn't beat me to it) Get whatever rocketlauncher (I'd use blackbox as an example), That Shotgun, Escape Plan. Damage yourself to 5 hp or so. You have so much power now it's ridiculous, and with Escape Plan you have a lot of chance to avoid being hit. If you're really the only one being targeted and can't escape because of nobody helping you then you wouldn't make more damage anyway at that point even if you could rocketjump away.. Black box would help if you see you're being targeted from longer range as you could land 3 rockets +45 hp and fall (in livingroom for example) For the rest you could use escape plan to get more hp I'm sure and do a jump away.. It's a soldier you just give him an extra way to be mobile and more annoying than he already is.
On a open map i can jump around all i want for a long time without hale getting to me. Take for instance xycr guy or whatever his name is, if you give him any form of regen health or ammo he would just jump forever, same with the pyro. On the other hand, what about lowering the amount of crits a heavy gets (number of seconds) it might be too high at the moment, its either that or limit heavy's.
I can give you a reason as I wanted to use it, if you go with a mini sentry(gunslinger) and dispenser, you end up on 0 metal, you can't even pull out the widow make to get metal from the sentry fire... so you can't get metal that way.. allow widow maker to be pulled out but not fired if not enough metal and you'll see something happening then. Perks of the shotgun are better now without any drawback to it to begin with.. while widow maker had perks and flaws... now it has changed for... nothing..so you have shotgun being simply better over widow maker reason it's being used.. shotgun is better than all weapons atm.. alter some stuff to give balance to all and there might be some variety after that.. I see people using that pomson thingy.. it has an effect of draining rage meter on hale if you hit him if I recall that right.. why wouldn't that deduct more so it has more of a purpose for engis to use if they don't wish to be raged so often near dispensers. Why not have a pyro trap him in a corner while 3 engis take away his rage? Too powerful? No.. that would mean that on crevice if you trap hale in the heavy cave (where everyone camps) with a simple uber medic at the bottom (sometimes with a help of a pyro helps a lot) you can gompa stomp him to death very easily.. rage doesn't help as gompa bounces you anyway. The two at the bottom are ubered so not affected..
[Wall of text/quotes follows (split into bitsize spoilers for readability)] Spoiler So to sum up: Reserve Shooter: [+] Crits airborne targets [-] Reduced clip size Stock Shotgun: [+] Crits airborne targets [+] Lifts grounded targets slightly off the ground [+] Remove all forward momentum from airborne targets [+] No reduced clip size I think we all know which weapon will get left forgotten in spawn Spoiler Useful: Yes OP: Doubly so One Rocket Launcher per Soldier is more than enough Spoiler Can't be done. The ability to weapon switch is determined client-side. And creating a command to force yourself to equip an empty weapon is a lousy way to fix this Spoiler Erm...what? :x Spoiler :x That's what I've been trying to say all along... Spoiler You've answered your own question: Spoiler Only affects Hale on certain map = Map issue, talk to mappers OR Just don't go there as Hale Spoiler (Even though this be a discussion about SHOTGUNS, not miniguns) 1000x YES [awaits criticism on ideas and use of spoilers]
This is getting ridiculous ... the wall of text keeps growing with each reply to this thread per person that wants to criticize it.. All the shotgun ideas I gave are in a sense, meant to be one of them, not all of them... and no matter what you put should have a draw back, example would be reserved shooters clipsize lowering, but there could be another like less damage on the shotgun (ex. liberty launcher). For engi shotguns I only answered it the way I did so you'd see why (although you know, duh.). What I was pointing to is add a drawback to the shotgun so it's not so op, same for heavy shotgun.. if it heals, make a drawback.. (ex, slower movement since heavies are slow as it is, it's a big pain using the shotgun then but has a high gain [or] drains hp while in use, from Gloves of Running Urgently) Also.. Rocketlauncher doesn't stagger hale in mid air.. it only bounces him in a random direction depending on where hit + tf2 lag compensation + hale speed = random and unpredictable. Adding a stagger effect would mean slow down move speed (natasha effect I know but it would only work in mid air as per what I suggested and since we have so many jumpy guys this would be an interesting addon for them..) For pomson+pyro it's teamwork.. the whole saxton hale mode is about teamwork.. no teamwork no winning really.. so why not give players another possible combo.. Thing is that you think it would be op for players.. not really, pomson has a slow refire, hale would get rage eventually and the whole thing would be stupid without anybody like heavy damaging him in the process granting him more rage.. he would get rage eventually just he'd take a bit more damage for it... without a heavy at least firing at him the whole thing ends up being stupid and just wasting time.. About crevice talk to Snelvuur, end of story there.. no mapper in the world could help you improve it without Snelvuur approving the update.. There's more restrictions to changes than you'd see when you go into a bank.. Map makers didn't make those spots without a reason (some did but eh LZ has a tendency of finding ways around stuff). I personally as you already know like making little trap spots, point is it can be used both ways making it balanced, it also depends largely on the map layout. In crevice the map is open enough for hale to jump around like a mad monkey, means saxton with his abilities is quite mobile.. why not make a few tight spots for him? And this thread is largely spreading in so many ways it's ridiculous ... and since only we're talking we could talk about all of this over steam.. why the hell are we responding in a thread making walls of text for Snob to waste money on popcorn?
'cause popcorn taste good. To stay in the topic, i don't think the shotty need a buff for the soldier atm. If we start to buff every weapon, it'll make vsh way too hard for hale, there will be more ragespam, ppl get angry at it, cucumber, vsh will not be fun anymore.
VSH already lost it's fun. People already ragespam. They already get angry. I think it would be better to add a bit more variety of weapons to make it more interesting. Try and do what Valve is doing with TF2 currently. Try to make atleast to make some weapons an option.
I'll just skip the walls of text and hop in half way. Make the soldier get crits and speed boost and/or give minicrits or damage resistance to teammates around him once he fills up a rage meter with his shotty, the boost lasts 15 seconds. Damage needed should be around 300dmg. Damage done ONLY with shotgun.
few criticisms: Minicrits makes buff banner redundant Damage resistance makes battalions backup redundant Stock banner buffs only last 10 secs 180 is the max crit dmg for all shotgun based weapons (with weapon fixed spread). Why should the soldier get more when he has a rocket launcher capable of such dmg?
I never see a soldier use buff banner or battalions backup in the first place cause it's not worth the trouble. Additional 5 seconds buff, having a secondary GUN and helping the team with it... sounds quite appealing to me. I rather that than having a pocket medic and walking up to Hale to punch me so I can use the battalion's. Or get myself killed rocket jumping all cause I wanted to give the team minicrits.